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	<title>Comments on: public knowledge of science</title>
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	<link>http://lquilter.net/blog/archives/2005/11/07/public-knowledge-of-science</link>
	<description>a reality-based, fantasy-influenced journal on information, autonomy &#38; the world</description>
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		<title>By: Kyle</title>
		<link>http://lquilter.net/blog/archives/2005/11/07/public-knowledge-of-science/comment-page-1#comment-23456</link>
		<dc:creator>Kyle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Nov 2005 18:50:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lquilter.net/blog/?p=401#comment-23456</guid>
		<description>Late late late, but here is &lt;a href=&quot;http://pitofbabel.org/blog/?p=162&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;my response.&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Late late late, but here is <a href="http://pitofbabel.org/blog/?p=162" rel="nofollow">my response.</a></p>
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		<title>By: ripley</title>
		<link>http://lquilter.net/blog/archives/2005/11/07/public-knowledge-of-science/comment-page-1#comment-23267</link>
		<dc:creator>ripley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Nov 2005 23:09:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lquilter.net/blog/?p=401#comment-23267</guid>
		<description>I think this is great - but I think there is maybe a disciplinary problem. Yes, religious ideas are complex, but a great deal of effort goes into presenting them in ways people can easily understand. That is an aspect of being a religious speaker - it has been professionalized and well rewarded within the field (as it were).

I&#039;m not sure that the same thing has been done for science - i don&#039;t sense a huge priority on communicating to laypeople, well rewarded by the field. any actual scientists want to chime in on this one?

ps. hiya it&#039;s your former Samuelson Clinic GSR!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think this is great &#8211; but I think there is maybe a disciplinary problem. Yes, religious ideas are complex, but a great deal of effort goes into presenting them in ways people can easily understand. That is an aspect of being a religious speaker &#8211; it has been professionalized and well rewarded within the field (as it were).</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure that the same thing has been done for science &#8211; i don&#8217;t sense a huge priority on communicating to laypeople, well rewarded by the field. any actual scientists want to chime in on this one?</p>
<p>ps. hiya it&#8217;s your former Samuelson Clinic GSR!</p>
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		<title>By: badgerbag</title>
		<link>http://lquilter.net/blog/archives/2005/11/07/public-knowledge-of-science/comment-page-1#comment-23238</link>
		<dc:creator>badgerbag</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Nov 2005 06:45:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lquilter.net/blog/?p=401#comment-23238</guid>
		<description>This is beautiful... I was just talking about similar ideas today with Jo Spanglemonkey.  The amount of money that people in a church contribute is quite a lot - to support the staff, building, insurance, everything!  And what if you just took the people in a neighborhood and said, &quot;Here&#039;s some extra taxes.  Here&#039;s the amount of money. Now what services do you want?&quot;  Who the fuck would say &quot;Lecture me about philosophy and morality?&quot;  How very strange.  Instead, better school in general - free school all the time on anything, close by and accessible, for all ages, community spaces, and childcare.  Hell... tool libraries.  WTF on the churches.  It&#039;s insane!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is beautiful&#8230; I was just talking about similar ideas today with Jo Spanglemonkey.  The amount of money that people in a church contribute is quite a lot &#8211; to support the staff, building, insurance, everything!  And what if you just took the people in a neighborhood and said, &#8220;Here&#8217;s some extra taxes.  Here&#8217;s the amount of money. Now what services do you want?&#8221;  Who the fuck would say &#8220;Lecture me about philosophy and morality?&#8221;  How very strange.  Instead, better school in general &#8211; free school all the time on anything, close by and accessible, for all ages, community spaces, and childcare.  Hell&#8230; tool libraries.  WTF on the churches.  It&#8217;s insane!</p>
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		<title>By: LQ</title>
		<link>http://lquilter.net/blog/archives/2005/11/07/public-knowledge-of-science/comment-page-1#comment-23065</link>
		<dc:creator>LQ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Nov 2005 14:25:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lquilter.net/blog/?p=401#comment-23065</guid>
		<description>A few responses to points raised by Kyle &amp; Joe.

(a) Public seminars on scientific topics become unruly &amp; rude.  Well, that may be true, but it need not.  The tone of discussion has to do with the rules of the format.  Church services don&#039;t have Q&amp;A, for example.  And people tend to go to church services, not to challenge the message, but to hear it, and to either blindly accept it or to process it privately (or to forget it completely).  In this respect, church services and large lecture hall classes typical of undergraduate required classes seem somewhat similar &#8212; except that church services are freely and ubiquitously available.  

On the other hand, maybe the public seminar on science model (with Q&amp;A) is a better model for conveying information than church services, or maybe it&#039;s better for conveying scientific information.

Really, my point is just that I wish that science information were ubiquitously &amp; freely available.  Religious information is, and I suspect that is a major reason that religious institutions and religious beliefs continue to thrive.  Here we are facing a crisis in science education and literacy in the US, and yet religion is booming.  

(b) Science is complex.  That&#039;s for sure.  But so are religious doctrines.  Complex, confusing, often self-contradictory, embedding and linking to lots of other ideas.  A religious services leader might &quot;preach&quot; on an ongoing series of related topics, work her way through an exegesis of a religious text over a series of weeks or months, or tackle the material in any way she wants.  Religious service leaders are doing some form of teaching, after all.  They may or may not do it in an intellectually honest or rigorous way, but the fundamental pedagogical and organizational problems religious service leaders confront must be in some respects similar to those that other teachers face.  I grant that the essentially subjective and frankly made-up nature of religious doctrine gives religious service leaders a flexibilitly that is perhaps more akin to the flexibility experienced by literature teachers than science teachers.  But I don&#039;t believe that scientific information is uniquely unsuited for mass distribution in low-interaction, informal, voluntary settings.  

In fact, we teach science in serial form in primary school and universities, so the information is certainly able to be packaged in a variety of ways.  The problem I see isn&#039;t the packaging, it&#039;s the dissemination: scientific information just simply isn&#039;t nearly as available to people as religious information. 

(c) Finding good teachers who are willing to do it must be hard in science as it is in religion.  

(d) I really hope that new methods of delivering information, like podcasts, will get rid of some of the imbalances in access to valuable information.  

(e) But really I&#039;m not seriously proposing anything, nor seeking to defend a proposal.  My point basically is just that religious information is widely available, and I believe that significantly contribures to the enduring popularity and longevity of religious institutions and doctrines.  I mean, really, it&#039;s almost a perfect model for distributing and marketing information products:  If you look at churches, synagogues, and the like, what are they selling?  Completely made-up stuff with an obvious financial interest in selling it.  And yet people buy it!  When they could buy something else or take the religious information for free.  Religious information is given away for free, and it generates its own popularity.  

Yes, the story is much more complex: childhood indoctrination, tradition, government coercion, social pressures, blah blah blah.  But if we just pull out the information distribution strand, and compare religious information and scientific information &#8212; it&#039;s no wonder that in the marketplace of ideas science is losing out.  Because markets aren&#039;t just made up of what&#039;s the best product; they&#039;re also comprised of the most available products at the best prices.  And if we want to know why religion outcompetes sciences as an explanation for human evolution, then maybe one part of the answer is information distribution.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A few responses to points raised by Kyle &amp; Joe.</p>
<p>(a) Public seminars on scientific topics become unruly &amp; rude.  Well, that may be true, but it need not.  The tone of discussion has to do with the rules of the format.  Church services don&#8217;t have Q&amp;A, for example.  And people tend to go to church services, not to challenge the message, but to hear it, and to either blindly accept it or to process it privately (or to forget it completely).  In this respect, church services and large lecture hall classes typical of undergraduate required classes seem somewhat similar &mdash; except that church services are freely and ubiquitously available.  </p>
<p>On the other hand, maybe the public seminar on science model (with Q&amp;A) is a better model for conveying information than church services, or maybe it&#8217;s better for conveying scientific information.</p>
<p>Really, my point is just that I wish that science information were ubiquitously &amp; freely available.  Religious information is, and I suspect that is a major reason that religious institutions and religious beliefs continue to thrive.  Here we are facing a crisis in science education and literacy in the US, and yet religion is booming.  </p>
<p>(b) Science is complex.  That&#8217;s for sure.  But so are religious doctrines.  Complex, confusing, often self-contradictory, embedding and linking to lots of other ideas.  A religious services leader might &#8220;preach&#8221; on an ongoing series of related topics, work her way through an exegesis of a religious text over a series of weeks or months, or tackle the material in any way she wants.  Religious service leaders are doing some form of teaching, after all.  They may or may not do it in an intellectually honest or rigorous way, but the fundamental pedagogical and organizational problems religious service leaders confront must be in some respects similar to those that other teachers face.  I grant that the essentially subjective and frankly made-up nature of religious doctrine gives religious service leaders a flexibilitly that is perhaps more akin to the flexibility experienced by literature teachers than science teachers.  But I don&#8217;t believe that scientific information is uniquely unsuited for mass distribution in low-interaction, informal, voluntary settings.  </p>
<p>In fact, we teach science in serial form in primary school and universities, so the information is certainly able to be packaged in a variety of ways.  The problem I see isn&#8217;t the packaging, it&#8217;s the dissemination: scientific information just simply isn&#8217;t nearly as available to people as religious information. </p>
<p>(c) Finding good teachers who are willing to do it must be hard in science as it is in religion.  </p>
<p>(d) I really hope that new methods of delivering information, like podcasts, will get rid of some of the imbalances in access to valuable information.  </p>
<p>(e) But really I&#8217;m not seriously proposing anything, nor seeking to defend a proposal.  My point basically is just that religious information is widely available, and I believe that significantly contribures to the enduring popularity and longevity of religious institutions and doctrines.  I mean, really, it&#8217;s almost a perfect model for distributing and marketing information products:  If you look at churches, synagogues, and the like, what are they selling?  Completely made-up stuff with an obvious financial interest in selling it.  And yet people buy it!  When they could buy something else or take the religious information for free.  Religious information is given away for free, and it generates its own popularity.  </p>
<p>Yes, the story is much more complex: childhood indoctrination, tradition, government coercion, social pressures, blah blah blah.  But if we just pull out the information distribution strand, and compare religious information and scientific information &mdash; it&#8217;s no wonder that in the marketplace of ideas science is losing out.  Because markets aren&#8217;t just made up of what&#8217;s the best product; they&#8217;re also comprised of the most available products at the best prices.  And if we want to know why religion outcompetes sciences as an explanation for human evolution, then maybe one part of the answer is information distribution.</p>
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		<title>By: joe</title>
		<link>http://lquilter.net/blog/archives/2005/11/07/public-knowledge-of-science/comment-page-1#comment-23064</link>
		<dc:creator>joe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Nov 2005 13:19:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lquilter.net/blog/?p=401#comment-23064</guid>
		<description>hi, as a scientist i am inspired by your idea and would love to be a part of it but... have you ever actually been to a public seminar on a scientific topic?  From the scientists point of view, it normally gets taken over by people with specific, non-science education agendas i.e. try discussing GE in Europe or Evolution in Kansas.
Also, from a human point of view - science is really hard.  i&#039;m still struggling to understand my own field after 15 odd years of study and i&#039;m still a wet behind the ears newby to my older colleagues.  Doing good work is hard, communicating clearly with your peers is hard, communicating complex ideas to interested laypeople is hard(squared)and you want me to put myself in front of a group of people that won&#039;t honour the &#039;rules&#039; of polite argument?  with all due respect, it&#039;s not too surprising if not many scientists can handle that kind of pressure.  As for seminars, wander into your local university and just sit down, it&#039;s way more fun than doing an actual degree!  i also think new communications mechanisms hinging on the web might enable more of what you&#039;re looking for - podcasts just being the first step.  i wouldn&#039;t be surprised if in 10 years we can just flip on our 3D visors and sit in on a lecture/discussion on anything 24/7.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hi, as a scientist i am inspired by your idea and would love to be a part of it but&#8230; have you ever actually been to a public seminar on a scientific topic?  From the scientists point of view, it normally gets taken over by people with specific, non-science education agendas i.e. try discussing GE in Europe or Evolution in Kansas.<br />
Also, from a human point of view &#8211; science is really hard.  i&#8217;m still struggling to understand my own field after 15 odd years of study and i&#8217;m still a wet behind the ears newby to my older colleagues.  Doing good work is hard, communicating clearly with your peers is hard, communicating complex ideas to interested laypeople is hard(squared)and you want me to put myself in front of a group of people that won&#8217;t honour the &#8216;rules&#8217; of polite argument?  with all due respect, it&#8217;s not too surprising if not many scientists can handle that kind of pressure.  As for seminars, wander into your local university and just sit down, it&#8217;s way more fun than doing an actual degree!  i also think new communications mechanisms hinging on the web might enable more of what you&#8217;re looking for &#8211; podcasts just being the first step.  i wouldn&#8217;t be surprised if in 10 years we can just flip on our 3D visors and sit in on a lecture/discussion on anything 24/7.</p>
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		<title>By: Kyle</title>
		<link>http://lquilter.net/blog/archives/2005/11/07/public-knowledge-of-science/comment-page-1#comment-22900</link>
		<dc:creator>Kyle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Nov 2005 18:50:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lquilter.net/blog/?p=401#comment-22900</guid>
		<description>Very interesting post.  I actually think it probably wouldn&#039;t be a success, but I find the idea intriguing.  I may make a post in reference to it and trackback to you tonight.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very interesting post.  I actually think it probably wouldn&#8217;t be a success, but I find the idea intriguing.  I may make a post in reference to it and trackback to you tonight.</p>
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